Gymkhana skills in the real world

[klaviator]

For all of you have have participated in at least one Gymkhana, how have the skills you learned or practiced there been useful out there in the "real world".

I'll kick this off.

Although riding is my main hobby/pastime, I also enjoy photography.  Luckily these two hobbies go well together.  Often I'll be riding down the road and see a great photo opportunity.  Much of the time by the time I recognize it and my brain processes it I am already past that spot.  So I'll just whip a U turn, even on a narrow road.  Normally it's 2 U turns, one to go back and then another to go on.

Then there are those roads with curves so tight that it's not that much different from a gymkhana course.

[dredman]

Oooo good topic!

Trail braking - many folks teach you NOT to brake in turns.  But I have gotten myself out of MANY tight spots, hitting corners beyond the rise of a hill, going too fast in general, GK has saved my ass many times.  Not just that, but practice of ANY kind not only builds skills but builds confidence.  They don't give that out.

[Vurrich]

A bump in a turn can help but the biggest help in turns is to gun the engine at the proper time unless you must stop. The fastest way to stop is crossed up, or bike sideways.
You want enough torque to change your momentum so you can control your steering but not to go over your best speed.
Flying into a curve at a flat speed will allow your turn to be controlled by the momentum you went into the curve with.
Its better to tap the brakes before going into the curve and then giving it gas to keep a steady pace around the curve.
Works great for car racing too!

I've seen many riders oversteer in turns because they didn't change the momentum to rear wheel.
Allman brothers bassist sadly died in a curve going in too fast(Seen this way too often). IF you don't get momentum on rear wheel early you can easily slide into on coming traffic trying to slow or stop. IF you get momentum on rear wheel you can haul ass around the curve with total control.
 
Always best to let off the gas and then give it some gas prior to the curve.

[Brian A]

In the interest of discussion and expressing differing opinions, I am going to respond as there are a number of things here I take issue with. My responses are based on my experience and understanding of motorcycle riding, control and physics. Other's opinions may differ. If so, jump in and share them.

So let's get the ball rolling...

A bump in a turn can help but the biggest help in turns is to gun the engine at the proper time unless you must stop. The fastest way to stop is crossed up, or bike sideways.

Biggest help in a turn is to gun the engine? Nope. Gunning the engine (I am assuming "whack the throttle open") can hardly be described as the best help in a turn. Smooth but (very) aggressive roll on of the throttle is a legitimate technique when riding at a sporty pace, but otherwise "gunning it" can serve to disrupt stability and require the input of what would have otherwise been unnecessary rider control.

The fastest way to stop probably is to have the bike crossed up / sideways? Maybe so but you best be ready because that is also one of the best ways to crash! The best/fastest/safest way to stop is through judicious but aggressive application of front brake, even to the point of impending lock-up.
If you were to be sideways trying to stop, well, you'd be sliding sideways down the road until you stopped. The wheels/tires could not continue to turn otherwise you'd be rolling while sliding and if you were rolling while sliding, the net effect would be a vector that took you off at an angle into the oncoming lane.

Also, if crossed up / sideways was the best way to stop (and an implied 'slow down') we'd be seeing professional riders somehow? manage to apply that technique.  Can't say I've seen any do so.

You want enough torque to change your momentum so you can control your steering but not to go over your best speed.

I'm not sure what this means.  :confused-29:

Want torque to change your momentum? Torque is a rotational force. A twisting force.
A force applied via a moment arm to a point of rotation. How does one come to rely on torque to allow them to control their steering without going over their best speed?
I'd argue you control your steering via body position and input to the handlebars. Perhaps you refer to the torque applied to the steering head via the handlebars?

Flying into a curve at a flat speed will allow your turn to be controlled by the momentum you went into the curve with.
Its better to tap the brakes before going into the curve and then giving it gas to keep a steady pace around the curve.
Works great for car racing too!

Uh... nope.
"Better to tap the brakes" This statement is, in the context presented, a blanket statement. That makes it absolutely poor advice. You ever see Moto GP riders go from 180 mph and setup for a tight turn? I can absolutely assure you they do not "tap the brakes". They are so hard on the front binders the back tire is often skipping off the track surface.  Are there times when a light tap of the brakes is appropriate and useful? Sure. But there are also times when aggressive braking is proper and appropriate. Not even just appropriate, but the best approach for the conditions and desired result.

Works great in car racing too?  uhhh... again Nope. Having watched a fair amount of road racing (NASCAR, Indy car, Formula 1, etc) I have seen many times brake rotors glow red hot. Rotors do not glow red hot as a result of tapping the brakes.
I have driven very aggressively along certain mountain roads, in a certain area, and ridden with guys who are much better drivers in much quicker cars and I can guarantee you, 100% absolute guarantee you, you just "tap the brakes" while driving/ riding at a very spirited pace and you will very, very soon find yourself off the road and in a ditch, stuck into a hillside, or worse.

I've seen many riders oversteer in turns because they didn't change the momentum to rear wheel.
Allman brothers bassist sadly died in a curve going in too fast(Seen this way too often). IF you don't get momentum on rear wheel early you can easily slide into on coming traffic trying to slow or stop. IF you get momentum on rear wheel you can haul ass around the curve with total control.

HUH ???
Momentum is the product of the mass of a body (or system) X the velocity  p=m x v
The rider and the motorcycle are a system. While rolling down the road, their system has momentum. It is the velocity x the mass.
You can change the momentum by:
a) changing weight of system (throw your tank bag off)
b) change velocity of system (speed up or slow down)

How does one "shift momentum" to the rear tire? The system has the momentum. You can't "move" the momentum from, say the middle of the motorcycle to the rear wheel.

You can transfer weight within the system (shifting rider position, braking, etc) but I know of no way one can change the momentum to the rear wheel. To me that concept is akin to trying to weight the color purple. Perhaps I am greatly mistaken but the concept is not valid.

I honestly have no idea what is being described when you say "IF you don't get momentum on rear wheel early you can easily slide into on coming traffic trying to slow or stop."

If you were in a turn and trying to slow or stop, you would apply front brake (perhaps in balance with some application of rear brake).

If one wishes to "haul ass around the curve with total control" then one must be able to do just that: Be in control and go fast.
I am fortunate. I have ridden with some very good riders over the years. I have been tucked behind them at substantially brisk speeds in fast 100 mph sweepers and tight 1st or 2nd gear turns where the back tire spins on exit. And I can honestly say that about zero percent of the concepts/ideas presented (in the initial post) were conceptualized or applied.
 

Always best to let off the gas and then give it some gas prior to the curve.

Always? Nope.
Why would you let off the gas prior to the curve then give it gas prior to the curve? Whay not just stay on the gas?
What if it's a blind curve? What if you can't see what's in or around the curve. I'd say this suggestion needs some serious rethinking.


Final comment - I understand different people have different ways of describing things and different ways of riding motorcycles. This thread is about applying gymkhana skills (and by inference, general skills) to daily riding. In that light, I think it is good to discuss various experiences, techniques and points of advice.

I saw a number of points I disagreed and figured "What the heck? Let's all hash this stuff out."

Thanks for the opportunity to share my thoughts. I'm anxious to hear others.   :respect-048:

[KrisCook]

You all know I haven't ridden much, and now ride even less, so I don't have many stories.  But two times come to mind when I needed gymkhana skills.  Both times happened when I was just messing around, exploring (read: lost) and wound up at a dead end.  The first was before I'd even heard of gymkhana, although I HAD taken a BRC.  I had to decide quick what I was going to do, because the dead end was downhill.  I did some fast thinking and made a quick left into the last driveway before the end.  Only problem was, the driveway was ALSO downhill, and it was covered with wet, slick-as-snot pine needles.  So there I sat.  I couldn't back up, and it was a short driveway, so I was pretty much just sitting there, feeling stupid, looking in someone's living room window.  I finally decided the best course of action was to just take a left and ride through their front yard and get the hell out of there.

The second time was another dead end, straight up a steep hill, at night, hoping to get to a parking lot, but all I got to was a closed gate.  To stop right there would have meant dropping the bike for sure.  At this point, I actually had a little gymkhana practice under my belt.  So I set up for a u-turn and managed it, with about a half inch to spare, and back down the hill I went.   Win! 

[klaviator]

A bump in a turn can help but the biggest help in turns is to gun the engine at the proper time unless you must stop. The fastest way to stop is crossed up, or bike sideways.
You want enough torque to change your momentum so you can control your steering but not to go over your best speed.
Flying into a curve at a flat speed will allow your turn to be controlled by the momentum you went into the curve with.
Its better to tap the brakes before going into the curve and then giving it gas to keep a steady pace around the curve.
Works great for car racing too!

I've seen many riders oversteer in turns because they didn't change the momentum to rear wheel.
Allman brothers bassist sadly died in a curve going in too fast(Seen this way too often). IF you don't get momentum on rear wheel early you can easily slide into on coming traffic trying to slow or stop. IF you get momentum on rear wheel you can haul ass around the curve with total control.
 
Always best to let off the gas and then give it some gas prior to the curve.

I consider myself a pretty experienced rider with many thousands of miles on some of the curviest roads in the country.  I can't say that any of this makes much sense to me. :thinking-022: 

[Vurrich]

In the interest of discussion ...

Sorry i didn't explain that well. GP moto racers use hard braking prior to turn and then back on the gas. That is what is taught. Motorcross racers do sideways powerslides to slow quick or stop at times and make quick turns. By going sideways it is possible to avoid a car that is right in front of you IF you know how to brake n powerslide your bike to side of the idiot that made quick turn in front of you rather than locking brakes straight up. I've done this. May not be the fastest stop but it was the best way to avoid the idiot in a cage and it stopped me from slamming him,. Sideways breaking can be very advantageous on dirt but not always necessary. (come over a hill fast and you spin it sideways to make a quick turn)  You do't even need to apply brakes most of time for its automatically slowing you.
At a steady speed into a curve your vehicle will be controlled by inertia and that external force can push you into the other lane (attempting to stop will take you into that lane) if going too fast but by putting power to the rear wheel it will change the inertia and the force will make your turn tighter.. If you dont change the inertia you will fight it in a turn. But if biker 1 hits a curve at a steady 50mph and biker 2 slows prior to or gives it some gas then biker 2 should make that curve much easier because he has changed the inertia and is in better control. Power to the rear wheel will change the inertia providing better control in a curve.
Let off the gas in a curve and you will feel the bike taking you off your course.

[Vurrich]

No I didn't explain that well, not great with words. The quickest way for me to stop has been to turn it sideways on a rare occasion.  I have done a half circle in the street to avoid a quick left turn cager without loosing it, by turning sideways and spinning it around. It saved my hide. That was probably the fastest I ever stopped a bike. I would have hit the cager otherwise. By going sideways I could serve away from the cager slightly rather than locking it up straight on into the car. It was instinct and I was in trouble and had to do something drastic. Learned that from hard and fast dirt riding. I did a lot of power sliding in my younger days.

On street racing they say to brake hard prior to the turn and then back on the gas to set your speed for the turn.

[klaviator]

Sorry i didn't explain that well.
At a steady speed into a curve your vehicle will be controlled by inertia and that external force can push you into the other lane (attempting to stop will take you into that lane) if going too fast but by putting power to the rear wheel it will change the inertia and the force will make your turn tighter.. But if biker 1 hits a curve at 50mph and biker 2 slows prior to or gives it some gas then  biker 2 should make that curve much easier. Power to the rear wheel will change the inertia providing better control in a curve.

When I am in a curve my path is mainly controlled by my steering inputs unless my tires lose traction.  Rolling off the gas in a curve will tend to tighten my line and rolling on the gas will tend to make me run wide.  Both of these tendencies can be controlled by steering the bike where I want it to go although that can be difficult at very low speeds and tight turns. 

Braking in a curve is a separate issue.  On some bikes hitting the brakes, especially the front will make it want to go wide.  Again, this can be controlled. 

What you have stated, at least with respect to motorcycles is just not correct.  Putting more power to the rear wheel will not tighten your line unless you use enough power to slide the rear wheel.  Steering by sliding the rear wheel is a common technique in flat tracking and has been used in other forms of racing.  Sure you can use this technique on the street but most of us aren't skilled enough to do that safely.  I still don't see what any of this has to do with changing the inertia.

Getting back to low speed gymkhana skills.  If you are in a tight (very tight) low speed curve and start falling to the inside, just give it some gas to straighten out and keep the bike upright.  On the flip side, roll off the gas to tighten your line.

[klaviator]

No I didn't explain that well, not great with words. The quickest way for me to stop has been to turn it sideways on a rare occasion.  I have done a half circle in the street to avoid a quick left turn cager without loosing it, by turning sideways and spinning it around. It saved my hide. That was probably the fastest I ever stopped a bike. I would have hit the cager otherwise. By going sideways I could serve away from the cager slightly rather than locking it up straight on into the car. It was instinct and I was in trouble and had to do something drastic. Learned that from hard and fast dirt riding. I did a lot of power sliding in my younger days.


On street racing they say to brake hard prior to the turn and then back on the gas to set your speed for the turn.

Except maybe at very low speeds, getting the bike sideways while trying to stop will almost certainly result in a low or high side crash for most of us mere mortals.  If you can get your bike sideways while braking at speed and not crash you are a far better rider than anyone I know.

Now if you are talking about turning to avoid hitting something while on the brakes that's a different matter.  That's a skill everyone should have.

Maybe I just don't understand what you are trying to say

[klaviator]

On street racing they say to brake hard prior to the turn and then back on the gas to set your speed for the turn.

Many do use the technique of braking while upright and then rolling on the throttle in the curve.  Others will trail brake up to the apex then roll on the throttle once past the apex.  A good rider will be able to do either one. :bike-038:

[Vurrich]

When I am in a curve my path is mainly controlled by my steering inputs unless my tires lose traction.  Rolling off the gas in a curve will tend to tighten my line and rolling on the gas will tend to make me run wide.  Both of these tendencies can be controlled by steering the bike where I want it to go although that can be difficult at very low speeds and tight turns. 

If a bike does a casual 50 mph in curve without changing his speed and he finds it too fast for the curve and he will be straying into the wrong lane. (seen it many times) Trying to stop will often keep you headed in the way the bike is pushing into a possible collision. Giving it gas and power to the rear wheel will take you around that curve much easier because you are not fighting the inertia.
Works in cars too. It may not be expressed properly but it works.

[Vurrich]

Except maybe at very low speeds...

It was a combination of braking and a slight deviation from my collision course but the best way I could avoid a silly young driver that made a bad choice. 

[klaviator]

If a bike does a casual 50 mph ...

If I find myself going to fast into a curve I can do two things.  I can use the brakes to slow down while useing countersteering to prevent going wide or I can just use countersteering to lean the bike over as much as needed to make the curve.  Option 2 will only work if I am really not going to fast for my bike to physically make the curve.

The LAST thing I want to do if going too fast into a curve is to speed up.

Cars are a whole different matter which I am not going to get into.

[KevinB]

If a bike does a casual 50 mph in curve without changing his speed and he finds it too fast for the curve and he will be straying into the wrong lane. (seen it many times)

That's not because of "inertia" or failure to "gas it" in the turn. That's a failure to add more steering input and look where you want to go.

I've entered curves too hot before (more than a casual 50 mph)...what got me through the turn was controlled braking, increased counter-steering, and looking through the turn.

Sliding a motorcycle sideways is not the most effective obstacle avoidance maneuver. It may have worked for you once or twice, but that's like saying because you've tossed lawn darts straight into the air a couple of times and have never been skewered, it's completely safe to do.