Gymkhana skills in the real world

[klaviator]

The short version of what I got from the video is that the weight transfer to the front from going off throttle increases the size of the front contact patch and that causes the bike to try and stand up. It's not a permanent running wide deal as once more speed is bled the bike will indeed turn tighter. I've tested the theory by rolling on and laying off throttle mid corner and find that a bit more throttle will tighten a line and less will go a bit wider. This was on my zrx and the old Vulcan 750. Haven't tried it on a dirt bike yet...

Needless to say the physics that control a 2 wheeled vehicle are rarely ever truly simple and generally have a laundry list of variables and things to account for.

I'll never claim to be the next rossi and have yet to do a track day so my observations are all street related and performed likely way under the limit of what the bike is capable of.

However bench racing is always a nice diversion.

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My experience is more with braking while in the curve which affects the bike more than just rolling off the throttle.  In my experience this is mainly dependent on tires.  None of my bikes with skinny tires such as my dual sport bikes would try to stand up and run wide while braking in a curve.  It is more likely to happen with wide tire bikes.  For example.  My old FJ1100 really wanted to stand up if I braked in a curve.  I replaced it with an EX500 which would stay neutral braking in a curve.  Then I replaced the OEM tires on the EX with the same brand and model of tires I had been using on the FJ and now it would stand up under braking.  Switching to a different brand of tire made it neutral again.  I think it's in the tire profile.  I'm pretty sure that if a bike won't run wide under braking, it won't by just rolling off the throttle.  I'm also pretty sure that Kieth Codes experience was with sport and race bikes which tend to have pretty wide tires.

Keep in mind that these tendencies to run wide or tighten up the line can be controlled by rider steering input.

Like you, my observations are from riding on the street, not the track.

One more thing.  IMO the most common cause of riders running wide in a curve is NOT LOOKING THROUGH THE CURVE.  They look at the edge of the road, target fixate, and run right off the road when the bike was perfectly capable of making the curve.

[Chitza]

The MSF really does their students a big disservice by making a big deal about not braking while in the curve and leaned over.  A lot of riders now have the idea that you shouldn't touch the brakes while leaned over.  This is TOTAL BS.   While there are many who advocate completing your braking BEFORE the curve, Braking while IN the curve is a very useful skill that EVERY rider should have.

Yeah. I agree. It messed me up for years. I remember the day I learned about trail braking. I was sitting at the races at Barber when a friend explained it to me. I was so excited about trying it, I left and rode up and down HWY 25. It was like Christmas morning. I do believe it wasn't the total answer, but between that, GK, and practice, practice, practice, it has finally clicked for me. THAT's what GK has done for me in the real world. I always feel like I ride better in general after a day on a GK course.

[klaviator]

I went out this morning to check out some of this stuff.  First up, the KLR.  Chopping the throttle in a really slow and tight turn will cuase it to drop into the turn as expected.  At higher speeds I could pretty much do anything I wanted with the throttle with no affect on the bike line.  It just remained neutral as I expected after over 40,000 miles on this bike, many of them on twisty roads.

Then I tried the Versys.  I know from experience that the Versys does have a slight tendency to stand up under braking.  So i went around a bunch of curves and tried chopping the throttle.  Yes there was a very slight tendency to run wide but if I wasn't looking for it I wouldn't have noticed it.  Basically I can do almost anything I want mid corner on the Versys; chop the throttle, gas it, brake or change my line.  It's one of the best handling street bike I have ridden, at least it is on smooth roads.  The suspension could use some improvement.

[klaviator]

I went out on my Kymco.  I tried to get it to misbehave in a curve.  On the gas, off the gas, trail braking, hitting the brakes in the middle of the curve......It just wouldn't do anything except go where I wanted it to go.  What am I doing wrong :thinking-022:

[Chitza]

It just wouldn't do anything except go where I wanted it to go.  What am I doing wrong :thinking-022:

Try looking where you don't want it to go  :lol-049:

[bblass]

No one has brought up the rule of 100 yet? At any given time you only have 100% of available traction to devote to any given input?

If you're using 80% of a traction to make a turn and try to use 40% to brake, you're going to have a bad day... Same  deal with accelerating in a turn. By counter-steering harder, redistributing weight and applying throttle you can tighten a turn mid-line; trail-braking is also an effective method. However, the execution of both depends on the traction available at the time. I'd guess leaning over and counter-steering harder without throttle is most efficient and safest since it does the least to upset traction, but I can see where careful application of throttle could compress the suspension and help with the turn. Dangerous gambit though.

Ya'll want to discuss oil weights next? :eating-popcorn-03:

[skypuppy]

I don't even know what gymkhana is and after reading this thread, I already don't like it.  What works best for me, fat boy on a 1000 lb GoldWing, is to slow down to get to the turn, doing the outside inside outside, and using controlled roll-on of the throttle during the turn.  Not too much throttle and not too little.  Slow is fast (and controlled).  Watching where you want to go really changed my entire method of riding.  Before that, all those years of riding was just more and more practice of bad technique.  I LIKE riding the twisties and just the above simple little methods have greatly improved my traction, control of the bike, and overall fun.  Now, if stuff jumps out of the woods in your line while you're in the curve, then yeah, you have to call on those (superhuman?) skills or crash into a moose and make him angry.  Or into an 18-wheeler and make yourself dead.  Neither one of which would be much fun.  I stopped doing the dragon because so many cars AND bikes coming toward me are in MY lane.  If you can get it on a quiet day, it's about the most fun you can have when not in bed. 
I also subscribe to the "rule of 100" regarding traction.  I've experimented with it in parking lots and yeah, there is something to that.

[springer]

 Goldwing is the second motorcycle in the video...

If you look, you can see that every rider IS looking where he wants to go.

Not a Goldwing but a different perspective.   



Another big bike...among others;



Still pictures, not a video but if you look, you will see proper riding technique. This was taken down at the MSF riders school in Alabama. The instructors asked us to put on the school. They called it the next step to take after their advance course.



Video from the same event. In this one you really should see just how Gymkhana can improve your skills on the street;




When we have our next one, show up and try it. You will have some fun...I promise.

The guy on the black Goldwing and really ride it.   

[Nice Goat]

I don't even know what gymkhana is and after reading this thread, I already don't like it. 

This is not a good thread by which to judge gymkhana.

Gymkhana is supposed to help people master clutch, throttle, and brake in tight courses.  It is also supposed to be fun.  Some people need it more than others, but many people come to our events just to practice, make friends, and watch each other learn amazing maneuvers on their bikes.

[kylepeterson]

I don't even know what gymkhana is and after reading this thread, I already don't like it.  What works best for me, fat boy on a 1000 lb GoldWing, is to slow down to get to the turn, doing the outside inside outside, and using controlled roll-on of the throttle during the turn.  Not too much throttle and not too little.  Slow is fast (and controlled).  Watching where you want to go really changed my entire method of riding.  Before that, all those years of riding was just more and more practice of bad technique.  I LIKE riding the twisties and just the above simple little methods have greatly improved my traction, control of the bike, and overall fun.  Now, if stuff jumps out of the woods in your line while you're in the curve, then yeah, you have to call on those (superhuman?) skills or crash into a moose and make him angry.  Or into an 18-wheeler and make yourself dead.  Neither one of which would be much fun.  I stopped doing the dragon because so many cars AND bikes coming toward me are in MY lane.  If you can get it on a quiet day, it's about the most fun you can have when not in bed. 
I also subscribe to the "rule of 100" regarding traction.  I've experimented with it in parking lots and yeah, there is something to that.

gk teaches traction, clutch , throttle, and brake control at slower speed. the lack of momentum means errors show up at a larger effect. smoothing out those errors builds confidence, smoothness, and predictability.

at first the results show up on the course as riders get better at the tight courses, gaining small confidence boosts and -didn't know I could do that- smiles.

the real joy happens later. when you enter/exit that sketchy parking lot, off camber road, or whatever you're not proficient/confident to handle normally... it clicks and you feel a new skill taking over and pulling you through.  its weirder than it sounds, but it happens and when it does you smile.

gk is FUN , socializing, skill building.

if you show up and try, you will succeed.

:-)

[maydaymike]

I do a full lock u-turn into the carport every night when I get home.  Does that count?

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[springer]

I do a full lock u-turn into the carport every night when I get home.  Does that count?

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Yep, I think so.

[springer]

 Just read the entire thread...wow, it went off the rails early.  :D

All I want to say is, the reason I do Gymkhana is because it is FUN!  ;)
The building of my slow speed skill-set is a by-product that has been useful on the street and dirt.  8)

Speaking of Gymkhana...anyone interested in some more GP8 fun? Since it is winter, we do get a cold chill every now and then, I am thinking a Saturday after it gets warmer during the day.
Not necessary this Saturday, more along the lines of after the holidays.

No need to clutter up this thread, reply here;

http://www.motorcyclealabama.com/rides/index.php?topic=2479.0